Hey Josh it’s disappointing that anyone would call you foolish for suggesting based on your research that Jesus was possibly a wealthy man. Even though I disagree with you I would never consider someone foolish for free thought. I would challenge your research against Biblical scholars from the past 100 years? The thing with history is the ease it can be manipulated over time. In any case I am extremely interested and curious why you, your father, and leadership at Elevate are so consumed with being wealthy and prosperous with earthly possessions? I actually made the difficult decision to pull my family from your church over my concern with the utter distraction and confusion related to prioritizing earthly wealth the way you guys do. It was a hard decision because we love Mighty Men and greatly respect you and your father and family for that matter in your efforts to carry out the good news of Jesus. But the constant prioritization and emphasis on extreme wealth and possessions as cornerstones of your business model leave me confused and frustrated. And as you guys say if folks don’t like it then leave and that is what I chose to do. If you want to take the time to answer my question about extreme wealth being literally the cornerstone of your churches beliefs I would be excited to read your comments and be as open minded as possible in constructive thought development and possible change of beliefs.
i will try my best to answer your question as if it is genuine. although i will say using terms like “extreme wealth” “obsessed” and “cornerstones of your business model” tells me your perspective is pretty well set.
first, i understand the criticism. and i’m sure you know if you really had a question in your time here, you could have asked me, or anyone else in leadership - including mighty men- and had a very productive conversation. comment sections are never really the place that mature adults have these kinds of discussions.
Jesus said in matthew 6:21, “For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.” literally what we do with our money shows what has priority in our life.
if i care about people’s hearts, i’m going to talk about money. that’s why we talk about money. and always will. because, regardless of how uncomfortable the topic makes all of us, we need to care more about what God wants us to talk about than whether or not people feel like that’s necessary.
my responsibility is not to make sure the people in the audience like what i say, or agree with me. my job is to rightly divide the word and make what God says a priority. we live in a world where 94% of Christians don’t have a biblical worldview. i aim to change that.
third, extreme wealth and possessions have never and will never be mentioned or held up as cornerstones in our church. we are not consumed with being wealthy and prosperous and earthly possessions. it is not a cornerstone of our “business model” or “beliefs.” if you really believe that our whole family and leadership team is “consumed with wealth and earthly possessions” you’re arguing with people who don’t exist.
this is a strawman argument. no one teaches this here. if you want to know my thoughts on money specifically, you can read them in this vow of prosperity series.
i have preached hundreds of messages at our church. very few of them - in the single digits - have been on the subject of money. even a cursory glance at what i personally talk about will see how much i am not “consumed” with prosperity.
fourth, PK does talk about his life a lot, what God has done for him, how he is blessed. etc. people do not like this and have never liked this. why does he do this? because he believes that he has done life God’s way, and what is happening in his life is the fruit of a God-first life. he believes God wants to bless people abundantly emotionally, mentally, spiritually and financially. he believes that he’s seen that in his own life. he also doesn’t believe that he’s the only one who can/should have that experience. he shares what he shares for the purpose of inspiring/encouraging others to take their own journey towards prosperity.
most of the time, people just get upset when he does this and they don’t hear his heart or intention to help people live that same kind of life. to them it just sounds like pride, vanity, ego and exactly what you are describing.
“damned if you do, damned if you don’t”
some people will be inspired by this, some people - like you - will leave with a bad taste in their mouth. both responses are understandable.
finally, and in summary
we talk about money (and giving) a lot, because the Bible does. so if we are “consumed” with anything, it is helping people win, both on earth and in eternity. we believe God wants that for us.
that comes across wrong to some people. you included. i’m sorry that it does. i’m sorry you felt like you needed to leave. i wish you well on your journey. the best thing you can do for us is pray for us that the Holy Spirit would convict us and give us grace and mercy. John MacArthur said, “i’m wrong in my theology, i just don’t know where.” i agree with that. at the end of the day, we’re human beings doing our best. and sometimes our best isn’t good enough. that’s why we need grace. we can always do a better job and we’ll continue to work on that.
i wanted to take the time to respond to your comment, however, i’m not a comment guy.
if you want to continue the conversation, we don’t need to do it in the comments. you can email me directly joshc@elevate.life
I'm new to this platform and missed this entire section of your post. I will gladly email privately. My apologies. Let me re read your thoughtful and in depth response and I do appreciate you putting time into it.
hey there chris. i’ll answer your question in 2 parts.
first, do you mind letting me know which scholars you are referring to over the past 100 or even 1000 years? i’m not asking this question to just prove a point, but if you’ve read more or learned more from bible scholars, or studied the biblical texts more than what i’ve done over the past few posts, i’d love to hear it. you can go back in this series and read all the posts on what scripture has to say about prosperity. i’d encourage you to read them in order of my writing, go to the original sources and then share your perspective. i have studied the perspective of the old testament, new testament, jewish texts, as well as more modern scholars like vermes, crossan, meyer and witherington. here’s the truth, no one really knows Jesus’ socioeconomic status. in my opinion, there is more evidence that he wasn't poor than he was. if you believe that i am wrong, i’d be glad to take a look at your evidence. if i am proven wrong, that would serve me well.
Easy. Any and All of them. What you suggest about Jesus being wealthy is earth shattering and profound. Front page news. Books published about that very specific topic.
Why? Because it would dispel the historical representations that Christians around the world have of who and what Jesus was about. Can you serve multiple masters? Can wealth be a distraction? Can wealth and power make someone feel like they are a god? Do wealthy people need God? Are wealthy people humble in mind heart and spirit? I would love to know the percentage of wealthy people that care at all about God, Jesus and going to church?
You obviously know I can't provide you with a detailed list of Bible scholars and you are correct that I have not studied as in depth as you have.
I would argue that the burden is on you to defend a theory that is not shared by many? Why are you right and other men of faith wrong?
Where is the actual proof that Jesus was wealthy? You stated yourself that no one knows Jesus' socioeconomic status.
So what's the point behind your comments. What are you and the church trying to get at? What's the objective?
In your other comment you questioned if I was genuine or not, you basically disrespected me by suggesting I am not an adult because I posted in the forum and failed to approach anyone at Elevate and suggested that I am clearly uneducated and less read on the subject than you.
Fair. No argument from me. You don't know me any more than I know you. I am not a poster and I don't believe I attacked you personally with my post. I think the time spent going to Elevate Life gave me and my children a lot to think about and discuss.
Regarding your comment about not approaching anyone at Elevate. You guys aren't approachable Josh. I don't believe you would honestly care to have this conversation with me in person. But if you do care and would like to have it in person I would love to meet you and discuss further as "adults". I would very much welcome that.
And honestly my mind isn't already made up. I can tell you that I am very concerned and in a good way I have spent more time thinking about the messages coming out of Elevate than I have from any other church in my entire life.
So like I said if you are approachable and care to have an in person adult conversation with me I would love that.
Hey Josh it’s disappointing that anyone would call you foolish for suggesting based on your research that Jesus was possibly a wealthy man. Even though I disagree with you I would never consider someone foolish for free thought. I would challenge your research against Biblical scholars from the past 100 years? The thing with history is the ease it can be manipulated over time. In any case I am extremely interested and curious why you, your father, and leadership at Elevate are so consumed with being wealthy and prosperous with earthly possessions? I actually made the difficult decision to pull my family from your church over my concern with the utter distraction and confusion related to prioritizing earthly wealth the way you guys do. It was a hard decision because we love Mighty Men and greatly respect you and your father and family for that matter in your efforts to carry out the good news of Jesus. But the constant prioritization and emphasis on extreme wealth and possessions as cornerstones of your business model leave me confused and frustrated. And as you guys say if folks don’t like it then leave and that is what I chose to do. If you want to take the time to answer my question about extreme wealth being literally the cornerstone of your churches beliefs I would be excited to read your comments and be as open minded as possible in constructive thought development and possible change of beliefs.
i will try my best to answer your question as if it is genuine. although i will say using terms like “extreme wealth” “obsessed” and “cornerstones of your business model” tells me your perspective is pretty well set.
first, i understand the criticism. and i’m sure you know if you really had a question in your time here, you could have asked me, or anyone else in leadership - including mighty men- and had a very productive conversation. comment sections are never really the place that mature adults have these kinds of discussions.
second, money is the 3rd most mentioned subject in all of scripture. only behind God’s glory + sovereignty and prophecy. i talk about that here. https://dokeo.joshuacraft.com/p/11-what-is-prosperity?r=1f70q9&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web&showWelcomeOnShare=false
Jesus said in matthew 6:21, “For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.” literally what we do with our money shows what has priority in our life.
if i care about people’s hearts, i’m going to talk about money. that’s why we talk about money. and always will. because, regardless of how uncomfortable the topic makes all of us, we need to care more about what God wants us to talk about than whether or not people feel like that’s necessary.
my responsibility is not to make sure the people in the audience like what i say, or agree with me. my job is to rightly divide the word and make what God says a priority. we live in a world where 94% of Christians don’t have a biblical worldview. i aim to change that.
third, extreme wealth and possessions have never and will never be mentioned or held up as cornerstones in our church. we are not consumed with being wealthy and prosperous and earthly possessions. it is not a cornerstone of our “business model” or “beliefs.” if you really believe that our whole family and leadership team is “consumed with wealth and earthly possessions” you’re arguing with people who don’t exist.
this is a strawman argument. no one teaches this here. if you want to know my thoughts on money specifically, you can read them in this vow of prosperity series.
i have preached hundreds of messages at our church. very few of them - in the single digits - have been on the subject of money. even a cursory glance at what i personally talk about will see how much i am not “consumed” with prosperity.
fourth, PK does talk about his life a lot, what God has done for him, how he is blessed. etc. people do not like this and have never liked this. why does he do this? because he believes that he has done life God’s way, and what is happening in his life is the fruit of a God-first life. he believes God wants to bless people abundantly emotionally, mentally, spiritually and financially. he believes that he’s seen that in his own life. he also doesn’t believe that he’s the only one who can/should have that experience. he shares what he shares for the purpose of inspiring/encouraging others to take their own journey towards prosperity.
most of the time, people just get upset when he does this and they don’t hear his heart or intention to help people live that same kind of life. to them it just sounds like pride, vanity, ego and exactly what you are describing.
“damned if you do, damned if you don’t”
some people will be inspired by this, some people - like you - will leave with a bad taste in their mouth. both responses are understandable.
finally, and in summary
we talk about money (and giving) a lot, because the Bible does. so if we are “consumed” with anything, it is helping people win, both on earth and in eternity. we believe God wants that for us.
that comes across wrong to some people. you included. i’m sorry that it does. i’m sorry you felt like you needed to leave. i wish you well on your journey. the best thing you can do for us is pray for us that the Holy Spirit would convict us and give us grace and mercy. John MacArthur said, “i’m wrong in my theology, i just don’t know where.” i agree with that. at the end of the day, we’re human beings doing our best. and sometimes our best isn’t good enough. that’s why we need grace. we can always do a better job and we’ll continue to work on that.
i wanted to take the time to respond to your comment, however, i’m not a comment guy.
if you want to continue the conversation, we don’t need to do it in the comments. you can email me directly joshc@elevate.life
Much respect for you taking time to comment. Thanks and you have given me a lot to think about. Thanks Josh.
I'm new to this platform and missed this entire section of your post. I will gladly email privately. My apologies. Let me re read your thoughtful and in depth response and I do appreciate you putting time into it.
hey there chris. i’ll answer your question in 2 parts.
first, do you mind letting me know which scholars you are referring to over the past 100 or even 1000 years? i’m not asking this question to just prove a point, but if you’ve read more or learned more from bible scholars, or studied the biblical texts more than what i’ve done over the past few posts, i’d love to hear it. you can go back in this series and read all the posts on what scripture has to say about prosperity. i’d encourage you to read them in order of my writing, go to the original sources and then share your perspective. i have studied the perspective of the old testament, new testament, jewish texts, as well as more modern scholars like vermes, crossan, meyer and witherington. here’s the truth, no one really knows Jesus’ socioeconomic status. in my opinion, there is more evidence that he wasn't poor than he was. if you believe that i am wrong, i’d be glad to take a look at your evidence. if i am proven wrong, that would serve me well.
Easy. Any and All of them. What you suggest about Jesus being wealthy is earth shattering and profound. Front page news. Books published about that very specific topic.
Why? Because it would dispel the historical representations that Christians around the world have of who and what Jesus was about. Can you serve multiple masters? Can wealth be a distraction? Can wealth and power make someone feel like they are a god? Do wealthy people need God? Are wealthy people humble in mind heart and spirit? I would love to know the percentage of wealthy people that care at all about God, Jesus and going to church?
You obviously know I can't provide you with a detailed list of Bible scholars and you are correct that I have not studied as in depth as you have.
I would argue that the burden is on you to defend a theory that is not shared by many? Why are you right and other men of faith wrong?
Where is the actual proof that Jesus was wealthy? You stated yourself that no one knows Jesus' socioeconomic status.
So what's the point behind your comments. What are you and the church trying to get at? What's the objective?
In your other comment you questioned if I was genuine or not, you basically disrespected me by suggesting I am not an adult because I posted in the forum and failed to approach anyone at Elevate and suggested that I am clearly uneducated and less read on the subject than you.
Fair. No argument from me. You don't know me any more than I know you. I am not a poster and I don't believe I attacked you personally with my post. I think the time spent going to Elevate Life gave me and my children a lot to think about and discuss.
Regarding your comment about not approaching anyone at Elevate. You guys aren't approachable Josh. I don't believe you would honestly care to have this conversation with me in person. But if you do care and would like to have it in person I would love to meet you and discuss further as "adults". I would very much welcome that.
And honestly my mind isn't already made up. I can tell you that I am very concerned and in a good way I have spent more time thinking about the messages coming out of Elevate than I have from any other church in my entire life.
So like I said if you are approachable and care to have an in person adult conversation with me I would love that.
Let me know.