Hey, Josh! Hope you’re doing well. I stumbled upon this Substack which has led to some fun exercises in exegesis.
The 2 Corinthians pericope sits very soundly within the context of debt language within the Pauline epistles. The epistles (even those that are pseudepigraphic) reference our poverty soteriologically, and in turn how Christ paid our debt (Col. 2:13-14, Romans 6:23, Romans 8:12-13). Biblical scholars and pastors (e.g., Charles Spurgeon) recognize the overt idea of condescension of Christ, and use 2 Corinthians 8:9 to underscore that. Paul’s a big double entendre guy, so taking his words literally leads to the suffocation of the living breathing Word of the Bible that is meeting the audience where they’re at and relying on cultural cues to prompt transcendent revelation.
I totally agree that Jesus’s promise of abundance is both “already” and at the same time “not yet.” We are instructed to make it on earth as it is in Heaven in participation with the Divine Trinity and the saints. And to further that point that it’s not either/or, I think there’s a temptation to justify opulent wealth by saying that in Heaven all will be made right, as if to wipe our hands of the duty to seek justice, mercy, and reconciliation. Jesus delivered folks from all kinds of ailments, including poverty (especially considering the financial loss as a direct consequence of illness and social disenfranchisement). He also delivered others from the spiritual illness of greed (Luke 12:33, Luke 18:18-23). Paul even begins 2 Corinthians 8 with a word of praise for the churches in Macedonia for their generosity “according to their means”
The deliverance into abundance (spiritual, health, familial, financial) is also a deliverance from the obsessive control over these things (commercializing faith, capitalizing on systems of power, deceiving and withholding). The reality is that we don’t know what Heaven looks like, but we do know what Earth looks like right now, and it is wrought with wealth disparity, death and destruction of creation, and moral bankruptcy in pursuit—or justification—of material opulence.
Further down in 2 Corinthians Chapter 8 brings home the weight of our need to both rely on and support each other in favor of equity and equality: “For I do not mean that others should be eased and you burdened, but that as a matter of fairness your abundance at the present time should supply their need, so that their abundance may supply your need, that there may be fairness. As it is written, "Whoever gathered much had nothing left over, and whoever gathered little had no lack” (ref. to Ex. 16:18)
absolutely agree. i think we - humans - have turned "prosperity" into such a charged term, especially in the church with the rise of the "prosperity gospel" that we miss the idea that Scripture talks about prosperity in a much broader context. In addition, i come from a faith tradition where everything was about heaven and eventually. as if God doesn't care about right now.
but also, i think to just translate or look at these passages through the lens of salvation is not contextually correct for Paul's audience. Nor is it for us. Especially when we consider the Corinthian church vs. the other early churches.
to me, it is an unnecessarily narrow view of scripture to take the writing of Paul and assume that it is only about salvation. yes, salvation is massively important. eternity is forever after all. but we risk speaking about Scripture as if it does not lead to a better life in the present. Salvation matters for eternity, but why would the abundance Jesus describes in John 10:10 only be limited there when we have a whole life to live on this side of eternity? I think God + Scripture want to address how we live today as well as our soteriology. It is salvation, but not JUST salvation.
there's no reason why Paul isn't both speaking literally and metaphorically. When you look at the actual history of the early churches, and the context of 2 Corinthians, Paul is talking specifically about money. When we look at the broader context of the epistles, Paul is talking about a lot of things. so to me, its both.
who defines what is "material opulence?" who decides? that's one of the key things that people need to address. most people only view wealth through the lens of comparison. i address this earlier in the post i linked on the new testament definition of prosperity.
3 billion people live on less than $7 per day. the average American household makes more than 31x that.
if we as "western christians" really pursued equity and equality, we would have to wrestle with how wealthy we actually are, even if we don't feel that wealthy.
but I think this is a conversation many christians both now, and historically are uncomfortable about having, and so we just avoid it, lean on tradition, or say that the Bible is speaking in some type of metaphysical terms, rather than embracing all of the practicality that is through the OT, messages of Jesus, Paul, and the NT.
anyway, appreciate your thoughts! thank you for sharing!
I like that! Paul is very much yes/and in his writings—there’s an eschatological urgency alongside a temporal presence. And I do think that tension is hard to hold when we have charged language and culture wars that want it to be one thing or the other. It’s like how Jesus cleverly uses politically-charged verbiage to point out the political and soteriological desolation for certain folks (and promise for others).
And totally, wealth is obviously very-much tied to its context. An example I have in answering this is that while there is an argument to be made that a federally mandated minimum wage hurts small businesses, my (idealized) solution is that the highest paid member of an organization should only make a ___% more than the lowest paid. Equality assumes a homogeneity of experiences, but equity floats all ships, if you will. In the same way, it doesn’t sit right with my soul to see so-called Christians opting in to legislation (via voting and endorsements) that removes healthcare, funding, and services while propping up multi-millionaires and billionaires. It’s just simply not the eschatological vision of justice we see anywhere in Scripture 🤷🏻♀️ I can only control what I can control, which is localized neighborly love and broader voting power.
Hey Josh it’s disappointing that anyone would call you foolish for suggesting based on your research that Jesus was possibly a wealthy man. Even though I disagree with you I would never consider someone foolish for free thought. I would challenge your research against Biblical scholars from the past 100 years? The thing with history is the ease it can be manipulated over time. In any case I am extremely interested and curious why you, your father, and leadership at Elevate are so consumed with being wealthy and prosperous with earthly possessions? I actually made the difficult decision to pull my family from your church over my concern with the utter distraction and confusion related to prioritizing earthly wealth the way you guys do. It was a hard decision because we love Mighty Men and greatly respect you and your father and family for that matter in your efforts to carry out the good news of Jesus. But the constant prioritization and emphasis on extreme wealth and possessions as cornerstones of your business model leave me confused and frustrated. And as you guys say if folks don’t like it then leave and that is what I chose to do. If you want to take the time to answer my question about extreme wealth being literally the cornerstone of your churches beliefs I would be excited to read your comments and be as open minded as possible in constructive thought development and possible change of beliefs.
i will try my best to answer your question as if it is genuine. although i will say using terms like “extreme wealth” “obsessed” and “cornerstones of your business model” tells me your perspective is pretty well set.
first, i understand the criticism. and i’m sure you know if you really had a question in your time here, you could have asked me, or anyone else in leadership - including mighty men- and had a very productive conversation. comment sections are never really the place that mature adults have these kinds of discussions.
Jesus said in matthew 6:21, “For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.” literally what we do with our money shows what has priority in our life.
if i care about people’s hearts, i’m going to talk about money. that’s why we talk about money. and always will. because, regardless of how uncomfortable the topic makes all of us, we need to care more about what God wants us to talk about than whether or not people feel like that’s necessary.
my responsibility is not to make sure the people in the audience like what i say, or agree with me. my job is to rightly divide the word and make what God says a priority. we live in a world where 94% of Christians don’t have a biblical worldview. i aim to change that.
third, extreme wealth and possessions have never and will never be mentioned or held up as cornerstones in our church. we are not consumed with being wealthy and prosperous and earthly possessions. it is not a cornerstone of our “business model” or “beliefs.” if you really believe that our whole family and leadership team is “consumed with wealth and earthly possessions” you’re arguing with people who don’t exist.
this is a strawman argument. no one teaches this here. if you want to know my thoughts on money specifically, you can read them in this vow of prosperity series.
i have preached hundreds of messages at our church. very few of them - in the single digits - have been on the subject of money. even a cursory glance at what i personally talk about will see how much i am not “consumed” with prosperity.
fourth, PK does talk about his life a lot, what God has done for him, how he is blessed. etc. people do not like this and have never liked this. why does he do this? because he believes that he has done life God’s way, and what is happening in his life is the fruit of a God-first life. he believes God wants to bless people abundantly emotionally, mentally, spiritually and financially. he believes that he’s seen that in his own life. he also doesn’t believe that he’s the only one who can/should have that experience. he shares what he shares for the purpose of inspiring/encouraging others to take their own journey towards prosperity.
most of the time, people just get upset when he does this and they don’t hear his heart or intention to help people live that same kind of life. to them it just sounds like pride, vanity, ego and exactly what you are describing.
“damned if you do, damned if you don’t”
some people will be inspired by this, some people - like you - will leave with a bad taste in their mouth. both responses are understandable.
finally, and in summary
we talk about money (and giving) a lot, because the Bible does. so if we are “consumed” with anything, it is helping people win, both on earth and in eternity. we believe God wants that for us.
that comes across wrong to some people. you included. i’m sorry that it does. i’m sorry you felt like you needed to leave. i wish you well on your journey. the best thing you can do for us is pray for us that the Holy Spirit would convict us and give us grace and mercy. John MacArthur said, “i’m wrong in my theology, i just don’t know where.” i agree with that. at the end of the day, we’re human beings doing our best. and sometimes our best isn’t good enough. that’s why we need grace. we can always do a better job and we’ll continue to work on that.
i wanted to take the time to respond to your comment, however, i’m not a comment guy.
if you want to continue the conversation, we don’t need to do it in the comments. you can email me directly joshc@elevate.life
I'm new to this platform and missed this entire section of your post. I will gladly email privately. My apologies. Let me re read your thoughtful and in depth response and I do appreciate you putting time into it.
hey there chris. i’ll answer your question in 2 parts.
first, do you mind letting me know which scholars you are referring to over the past 100 or even 1000 years? i’m not asking this question to just prove a point, but if you’ve read more or learned more from bible scholars, or studied the biblical texts more than what i’ve done over the past few posts, i’d love to hear it. you can go back in this series and read all the posts on what scripture has to say about prosperity. i’d encourage you to read them in order of my writing, go to the original sources and then share your perspective. i have studied the perspective of the old testament, new testament, jewish texts, as well as more modern scholars like vermes, crossan, meyer and witherington. here’s the truth, no one really knows Jesus’ socioeconomic status. in my opinion, there is more evidence that he wasn't poor than he was. if you believe that i am wrong, i’d be glad to take a look at your evidence. if i am proven wrong, that would serve me well.
Easy. Any and All of them. What you suggest about Jesus being wealthy is earth shattering and profound. Front page news. Books published about that very specific topic.
Why? Because it would dispel the historical representations that Christians around the world have of who and what Jesus was about. Can you serve multiple masters? Can wealth be a distraction? Can wealth and power make someone feel like they are a god? Do wealthy people need God? Are wealthy people humble in mind heart and spirit? I would love to know the percentage of wealthy people that care at all about God, Jesus and going to church?
You obviously know I can't provide you with a detailed list of Bible scholars and you are correct that I have not studied as in depth as you have.
I would argue that the burden is on you to defend a theory that is not shared by many? Why are you right and other men of faith wrong?
Where is the actual proof that Jesus was wealthy? You stated yourself that no one knows Jesus' socioeconomic status.
So what's the point behind your comments. What are you and the church trying to get at? What's the objective?
In your other comment you questioned if I was genuine or not, you basically disrespected me by suggesting I am not an adult because I posted in the forum and failed to approach anyone at Elevate and suggested that I am clearly uneducated and less read on the subject than you.
Fair. No argument from me. You don't know me any more than I know you. I am not a poster and I don't believe I attacked you personally with my post. I think the time spent going to Elevate Life gave me and my children a lot to think about and discuss.
Regarding your comment about not approaching anyone at Elevate. You guys aren't approachable Josh. I don't believe you would honestly care to have this conversation with me in person. But if you do care and would like to have it in person I would love to meet you and discuss further as "adults". I would very much welcome that.
And honestly my mind isn't already made up. I can tell you that I am very concerned and in a good way I have spent more time thinking about the messages coming out of Elevate than I have from any other church in my entire life.
So like I said if you are approachable and care to have an in person adult conversation with me I would love that.
Hey, Josh! Hope you’re doing well. I stumbled upon this Substack which has led to some fun exercises in exegesis.
The 2 Corinthians pericope sits very soundly within the context of debt language within the Pauline epistles. The epistles (even those that are pseudepigraphic) reference our poverty soteriologically, and in turn how Christ paid our debt (Col. 2:13-14, Romans 6:23, Romans 8:12-13). Biblical scholars and pastors (e.g., Charles Spurgeon) recognize the overt idea of condescension of Christ, and use 2 Corinthians 8:9 to underscore that. Paul’s a big double entendre guy, so taking his words literally leads to the suffocation of the living breathing Word of the Bible that is meeting the audience where they’re at and relying on cultural cues to prompt transcendent revelation.
I totally agree that Jesus’s promise of abundance is both “already” and at the same time “not yet.” We are instructed to make it on earth as it is in Heaven in participation with the Divine Trinity and the saints. And to further that point that it’s not either/or, I think there’s a temptation to justify opulent wealth by saying that in Heaven all will be made right, as if to wipe our hands of the duty to seek justice, mercy, and reconciliation. Jesus delivered folks from all kinds of ailments, including poverty (especially considering the financial loss as a direct consequence of illness and social disenfranchisement). He also delivered others from the spiritual illness of greed (Luke 12:33, Luke 18:18-23). Paul even begins 2 Corinthians 8 with a word of praise for the churches in Macedonia for their generosity “according to their means”
The deliverance into abundance (spiritual, health, familial, financial) is also a deliverance from the obsessive control over these things (commercializing faith, capitalizing on systems of power, deceiving and withholding). The reality is that we don’t know what Heaven looks like, but we do know what Earth looks like right now, and it is wrought with wealth disparity, death and destruction of creation, and moral bankruptcy in pursuit—or justification—of material opulence.
Further down in 2 Corinthians Chapter 8 brings home the weight of our need to both rely on and support each other in favor of equity and equality: “For I do not mean that others should be eased and you burdened, but that as a matter of fairness your abundance at the present time should supply their need, so that their abundance may supply your need, that there may be fairness. As it is written, "Whoever gathered much had nothing left over, and whoever gathered little had no lack” (ref. to Ex. 16:18)
absolutely agree. i think we - humans - have turned "prosperity" into such a charged term, especially in the church with the rise of the "prosperity gospel" that we miss the idea that Scripture talks about prosperity in a much broader context. In addition, i come from a faith tradition where everything was about heaven and eventually. as if God doesn't care about right now.
but also, i think to just translate or look at these passages through the lens of salvation is not contextually correct for Paul's audience. Nor is it for us. Especially when we consider the Corinthian church vs. the other early churches.
i write about those things on this topic here
https://dokeo.joshuacraft.com/p/15-the-church-at-corinth
https://dokeo.joshuacraft.com/p/15-a-simple-new-testament-definition
to me, it is an unnecessarily narrow view of scripture to take the writing of Paul and assume that it is only about salvation. yes, salvation is massively important. eternity is forever after all. but we risk speaking about Scripture as if it does not lead to a better life in the present. Salvation matters for eternity, but why would the abundance Jesus describes in John 10:10 only be limited there when we have a whole life to live on this side of eternity? I think God + Scripture want to address how we live today as well as our soteriology. It is salvation, but not JUST salvation.
there's no reason why Paul isn't both speaking literally and metaphorically. When you look at the actual history of the early churches, and the context of 2 Corinthians, Paul is talking specifically about money. When we look at the broader context of the epistles, Paul is talking about a lot of things. so to me, its both.
who defines what is "material opulence?" who decides? that's one of the key things that people need to address. most people only view wealth through the lens of comparison. i address this earlier in the post i linked on the new testament definition of prosperity.
3 billion people live on less than $7 per day. the average American household makes more than 31x that.
if we as "western christians" really pursued equity and equality, we would have to wrestle with how wealthy we actually are, even if we don't feel that wealthy.
i've got a lot more to write and say about this topic. i've already written a lot in this series. I'm still just giving some background info before we even move forward - https://dokeo.joshuacraft.com/s/vow-of-prosperity?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=menu
but I think this is a conversation many christians both now, and historically are uncomfortable about having, and so we just avoid it, lean on tradition, or say that the Bible is speaking in some type of metaphysical terms, rather than embracing all of the practicality that is through the OT, messages of Jesus, Paul, and the NT.
anyway, appreciate your thoughts! thank you for sharing!
I like that! Paul is very much yes/and in his writings—there’s an eschatological urgency alongside a temporal presence. And I do think that tension is hard to hold when we have charged language and culture wars that want it to be one thing or the other. It’s like how Jesus cleverly uses politically-charged verbiage to point out the political and soteriological desolation for certain folks (and promise for others).
And totally, wealth is obviously very-much tied to its context. An example I have in answering this is that while there is an argument to be made that a federally mandated minimum wage hurts small businesses, my (idealized) solution is that the highest paid member of an organization should only make a ___% more than the lowest paid. Equality assumes a homogeneity of experiences, but equity floats all ships, if you will. In the same way, it doesn’t sit right with my soul to see so-called Christians opting in to legislation (via voting and endorsements) that removes healthcare, funding, and services while propping up multi-millionaires and billionaires. It’s just simply not the eschatological vision of justice we see anywhere in Scripture 🤷🏻♀️ I can only control what I can control, which is localized neighborly love and broader voting power.
Checking out your other stuff here soon!
Hey Josh it’s disappointing that anyone would call you foolish for suggesting based on your research that Jesus was possibly a wealthy man. Even though I disagree with you I would never consider someone foolish for free thought. I would challenge your research against Biblical scholars from the past 100 years? The thing with history is the ease it can be manipulated over time. In any case I am extremely interested and curious why you, your father, and leadership at Elevate are so consumed with being wealthy and prosperous with earthly possessions? I actually made the difficult decision to pull my family from your church over my concern with the utter distraction and confusion related to prioritizing earthly wealth the way you guys do. It was a hard decision because we love Mighty Men and greatly respect you and your father and family for that matter in your efforts to carry out the good news of Jesus. But the constant prioritization and emphasis on extreme wealth and possessions as cornerstones of your business model leave me confused and frustrated. And as you guys say if folks don’t like it then leave and that is what I chose to do. If you want to take the time to answer my question about extreme wealth being literally the cornerstone of your churches beliefs I would be excited to read your comments and be as open minded as possible in constructive thought development and possible change of beliefs.
i will try my best to answer your question as if it is genuine. although i will say using terms like “extreme wealth” “obsessed” and “cornerstones of your business model” tells me your perspective is pretty well set.
first, i understand the criticism. and i’m sure you know if you really had a question in your time here, you could have asked me, or anyone else in leadership - including mighty men- and had a very productive conversation. comment sections are never really the place that mature adults have these kinds of discussions.
second, money is the 3rd most mentioned subject in all of scripture. only behind God’s glory + sovereignty and prophecy. i talk about that here. https://dokeo.joshuacraft.com/p/11-what-is-prosperity?r=1f70q9&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web&showWelcomeOnShare=false
Jesus said in matthew 6:21, “For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.” literally what we do with our money shows what has priority in our life.
if i care about people’s hearts, i’m going to talk about money. that’s why we talk about money. and always will. because, regardless of how uncomfortable the topic makes all of us, we need to care more about what God wants us to talk about than whether or not people feel like that’s necessary.
my responsibility is not to make sure the people in the audience like what i say, or agree with me. my job is to rightly divide the word and make what God says a priority. we live in a world where 94% of Christians don’t have a biblical worldview. i aim to change that.
third, extreme wealth and possessions have never and will never be mentioned or held up as cornerstones in our church. we are not consumed with being wealthy and prosperous and earthly possessions. it is not a cornerstone of our “business model” or “beliefs.” if you really believe that our whole family and leadership team is “consumed with wealth and earthly possessions” you’re arguing with people who don’t exist.
this is a strawman argument. no one teaches this here. if you want to know my thoughts on money specifically, you can read them in this vow of prosperity series.
i have preached hundreds of messages at our church. very few of them - in the single digits - have been on the subject of money. even a cursory glance at what i personally talk about will see how much i am not “consumed” with prosperity.
fourth, PK does talk about his life a lot, what God has done for him, how he is blessed. etc. people do not like this and have never liked this. why does he do this? because he believes that he has done life God’s way, and what is happening in his life is the fruit of a God-first life. he believes God wants to bless people abundantly emotionally, mentally, spiritually and financially. he believes that he’s seen that in his own life. he also doesn’t believe that he’s the only one who can/should have that experience. he shares what he shares for the purpose of inspiring/encouraging others to take their own journey towards prosperity.
most of the time, people just get upset when he does this and they don’t hear his heart or intention to help people live that same kind of life. to them it just sounds like pride, vanity, ego and exactly what you are describing.
“damned if you do, damned if you don’t”
some people will be inspired by this, some people - like you - will leave with a bad taste in their mouth. both responses are understandable.
finally, and in summary
we talk about money (and giving) a lot, because the Bible does. so if we are “consumed” with anything, it is helping people win, both on earth and in eternity. we believe God wants that for us.
that comes across wrong to some people. you included. i’m sorry that it does. i’m sorry you felt like you needed to leave. i wish you well on your journey. the best thing you can do for us is pray for us that the Holy Spirit would convict us and give us grace and mercy. John MacArthur said, “i’m wrong in my theology, i just don’t know where.” i agree with that. at the end of the day, we’re human beings doing our best. and sometimes our best isn’t good enough. that’s why we need grace. we can always do a better job and we’ll continue to work on that.
i wanted to take the time to respond to your comment, however, i’m not a comment guy.
if you want to continue the conversation, we don’t need to do it in the comments. you can email me directly joshc@elevate.life
I'm new to this platform and missed this entire section of your post. I will gladly email privately. My apologies. Let me re read your thoughtful and in depth response and I do appreciate you putting time into it.
for sure. you can see all the writing i did on this series here https://dokeo.joshuacraft.com/s/vow-of-prosperity/archive?sort=new
i'd just start at the beginning
Much respect for you taking time to comment. Thanks and you have given me a lot to think about. Thanks Josh.
hey there chris. i’ll answer your question in 2 parts.
first, do you mind letting me know which scholars you are referring to over the past 100 or even 1000 years? i’m not asking this question to just prove a point, but if you’ve read more or learned more from bible scholars, or studied the biblical texts more than what i’ve done over the past few posts, i’d love to hear it. you can go back in this series and read all the posts on what scripture has to say about prosperity. i’d encourage you to read them in order of my writing, go to the original sources and then share your perspective. i have studied the perspective of the old testament, new testament, jewish texts, as well as more modern scholars like vermes, crossan, meyer and witherington. here’s the truth, no one really knows Jesus’ socioeconomic status. in my opinion, there is more evidence that he wasn't poor than he was. if you believe that i am wrong, i’d be glad to take a look at your evidence. if i am proven wrong, that would serve me well.
Easy. Any and All of them. What you suggest about Jesus being wealthy is earth shattering and profound. Front page news. Books published about that very specific topic.
Why? Because it would dispel the historical representations that Christians around the world have of who and what Jesus was about. Can you serve multiple masters? Can wealth be a distraction? Can wealth and power make someone feel like they are a god? Do wealthy people need God? Are wealthy people humble in mind heart and spirit? I would love to know the percentage of wealthy people that care at all about God, Jesus and going to church?
You obviously know I can't provide you with a detailed list of Bible scholars and you are correct that I have not studied as in depth as you have.
I would argue that the burden is on you to defend a theory that is not shared by many? Why are you right and other men of faith wrong?
Where is the actual proof that Jesus was wealthy? You stated yourself that no one knows Jesus' socioeconomic status.
So what's the point behind your comments. What are you and the church trying to get at? What's the objective?
In your other comment you questioned if I was genuine or not, you basically disrespected me by suggesting I am not an adult because I posted in the forum and failed to approach anyone at Elevate and suggested that I am clearly uneducated and less read on the subject than you.
Fair. No argument from me. You don't know me any more than I know you. I am not a poster and I don't believe I attacked you personally with my post. I think the time spent going to Elevate Life gave me and my children a lot to think about and discuss.
Regarding your comment about not approaching anyone at Elevate. You guys aren't approachable Josh. I don't believe you would honestly care to have this conversation with me in person. But if you do care and would like to have it in person I would love to meet you and discuss further as "adults". I would very much welcome that.
And honestly my mind isn't already made up. I can tell you that I am very concerned and in a good way I have spent more time thinking about the messages coming out of Elevate than I have from any other church in my entire life.
So like I said if you are approachable and care to have an in person adult conversation with me I would love that.
Let me know.
chris, this is not a productive conversation for either of us to have.
my goal was not to offend you and i apologize if i did.
overall, i wish you well in the journey. if you want to reach out, you can do so at any time.