Hey, Josh! Hope you’re doing well. I stumbled upon this Substack which has led to some fun exercises in exegesis.
The 2 Corinthians pericope sits very soundly within the context of debt language within the Pauline epistles. The epistles (even those that are pseudepigraphic) reference our poverty soteriologically, and in turn how Christ paid our debt (Col. 2:13-14, Romans 6:23, Romans 8:12-13). Biblical scholars and pastors (e.g., Charles Spurgeon) recognize the overt idea of condescension of Christ, and use 2 Corinthians 8:9 to underscore that. Paul’s a big double entendre guy, so taking his words literally leads to the suffocation of the living breathing Word of the Bible that is meeting the audience where they’re at and relying on cultural cues to prompt transcendent revelation.
I totally agree that Jesus’s promise of abundance is both “already” and at the same time “not yet.” We are instructed to make it on earth as it is in Heaven in participation with the Divine Trinity and the saints. And to further that point that it’s not either/or, I think there’s a temptation to justify opulent wealth by saying that in Heaven all will be made right, as if to wipe our hands of the duty to seek justice, mercy, and reconciliation. Jesus delivered folks from all kinds of ailments, including poverty (especially considering the financial loss as a direct consequence of illness and social disenfranchisement). He also delivered others from the spiritual illness of greed (Luke 12:33, Luke 18:18-23). Paul even begins 2 Corinthians 8 with a word of praise for the churches in Macedonia for their generosity “according to their means”
The deliverance into abundance (spiritual, health, familial, financial) is also a deliverance from the obsessive control over these things (commercializing faith, capitalizing on systems of power, deceiving and withholding). The reality is that we don’t know what Heaven looks like, but we do know what Earth looks like right now, and it is wrought with wealth disparity, death and destruction of creation, and moral bankruptcy in pursuit—or justification—of material opulence.
Further down in 2 Corinthians Chapter 8 brings home the weight of our need to both rely on and support each other in favor of equity and equality: “For I do not mean that others should be eased and you burdened, but that as a matter of fairness your abundance at the present time should supply their need, so that their abundance may supply your need, that there may be fairness. As it is written, "Whoever gathered much had nothing left over, and whoever gathered little had no lack” (ref. to Ex. 16:18)
I like that! Paul is very much yes/and in his writings—there’s an eschatological urgency alongside a temporal presence. And I do think that tension is hard to hold when we have charged language and culture wars that want it to be one thing or the other. It’s like how Jesus cleverly uses politically-charged verbiage to point out the political and soteriological desolation for certain folks (and promise for others).
And totally, wealth is obviously very-much tied to its context. An example I have in answering this is that while there is an argument to be made that a federally mandated minimum wage hurts small businesses, my (idealized) solution is that the highest paid member of an organization should only make a ___% more than the lowest paid. Equality assumes a homogeneity of experiences, but equity floats all ships, if you will. In the same way, it doesn’t sit right with my soul to see so-called Christians opting in to legislation (via voting and endorsements) that removes healthcare, funding, and services while propping up multi-millionaires and billionaires. It’s just simply not the eschatological vision of justice we see anywhere in Scripture 🤷🏻♀️ I can only control what I can control, which is localized neighborly love and broader voting power.
Hey Josh it’s disappointing that anyone would call you foolish for suggesting based on your research that Jesus was possibly a wealthy man. Even though I disagree with you I would never consider someone foolish for free thought. I would challenge your research against Biblical scholars from the past 100 years? The thing with history is the ease it can be manipulated over time. In any case I am extremely interested and curious why you, your father, and leadership at Elevate are so consumed with being wealthy and prosperous with earthly possessions? I actually made the difficult decision to pull my family from your church over my concern with the utter distraction and confusion related to prioritizing earthly wealth the way you guys do. It was a hard decision because we love Mighty Men and greatly respect you and your father and family for that matter in your efforts to carry out the good news of Jesus. But the constant prioritization and emphasis on extreme wealth and possessions as cornerstones of your business model leave me confused and frustrated. And as you guys say if folks don’t like it then leave and that is what I chose to do. If you want to take the time to answer my question about extreme wealth being literally the cornerstone of your churches beliefs I would be excited to read your comments and be as open minded as possible in constructive thought development and possible change of beliefs.
I'm new to this platform and missed this entire section of your post. I will gladly email privately. My apologies. Let me re read your thoughtful and in depth response and I do appreciate you putting time into it.
Easy. Any and All of them. What you suggest about Jesus being wealthy is earth shattering and profound. Front page news. Books published about that very specific topic.
Why? Because it would dispel the historical representations that Christians around the world have of who and what Jesus was about. Can you serve multiple masters? Can wealth be a distraction? Can wealth and power make someone feel like they are a god? Do wealthy people need God? Are wealthy people humble in mind heart and spirit? I would love to know the percentage of wealthy people that care at all about God, Jesus and going to church?
You obviously know I can't provide you with a detailed list of Bible scholars and you are correct that I have not studied as in depth as you have.
I would argue that the burden is on you to defend a theory that is not shared by many? Why are you right and other men of faith wrong?
Where is the actual proof that Jesus was wealthy? You stated yourself that no one knows Jesus' socioeconomic status.
So what's the point behind your comments. What are you and the church trying to get at? What's the objective?
In your other comment you questioned if I was genuine or not, you basically disrespected me by suggesting I am not an adult because I posted in the forum and failed to approach anyone at Elevate and suggested that I am clearly uneducated and less read on the subject than you.
Fair. No argument from me. You don't know me any more than I know you. I am not a poster and I don't believe I attacked you personally with my post. I think the time spent going to Elevate Life gave me and my children a lot to think about and discuss.
Regarding your comment about not approaching anyone at Elevate. You guys aren't approachable Josh. I don't believe you would honestly care to have this conversation with me in person. But if you do care and would like to have it in person I would love to meet you and discuss further as "adults". I would very much welcome that.
And honestly my mind isn't already made up. I can tell you that I am very concerned and in a good way I have spent more time thinking about the messages coming out of Elevate than I have from any other church in my entire life.
So like I said if you are approachable and care to have an in person adult conversation with me I would love that.
Hey, Josh! Hope you’re doing well. I stumbled upon this Substack which has led to some fun exercises in exegesis.
The 2 Corinthians pericope sits very soundly within the context of debt language within the Pauline epistles. The epistles (even those that are pseudepigraphic) reference our poverty soteriologically, and in turn how Christ paid our debt (Col. 2:13-14, Romans 6:23, Romans 8:12-13). Biblical scholars and pastors (e.g., Charles Spurgeon) recognize the overt idea of condescension of Christ, and use 2 Corinthians 8:9 to underscore that. Paul’s a big double entendre guy, so taking his words literally leads to the suffocation of the living breathing Word of the Bible that is meeting the audience where they’re at and relying on cultural cues to prompt transcendent revelation.
I totally agree that Jesus’s promise of abundance is both “already” and at the same time “not yet.” We are instructed to make it on earth as it is in Heaven in participation with the Divine Trinity and the saints. And to further that point that it’s not either/or, I think there’s a temptation to justify opulent wealth by saying that in Heaven all will be made right, as if to wipe our hands of the duty to seek justice, mercy, and reconciliation. Jesus delivered folks from all kinds of ailments, including poverty (especially considering the financial loss as a direct consequence of illness and social disenfranchisement). He also delivered others from the spiritual illness of greed (Luke 12:33, Luke 18:18-23). Paul even begins 2 Corinthians 8 with a word of praise for the churches in Macedonia for their generosity “according to their means”
The deliverance into abundance (spiritual, health, familial, financial) is also a deliverance from the obsessive control over these things (commercializing faith, capitalizing on systems of power, deceiving and withholding). The reality is that we don’t know what Heaven looks like, but we do know what Earth looks like right now, and it is wrought with wealth disparity, death and destruction of creation, and moral bankruptcy in pursuit—or justification—of material opulence.
Further down in 2 Corinthians Chapter 8 brings home the weight of our need to both rely on and support each other in favor of equity and equality: “For I do not mean that others should be eased and you burdened, but that as a matter of fairness your abundance at the present time should supply their need, so that their abundance may supply your need, that there may be fairness. As it is written, "Whoever gathered much had nothing left over, and whoever gathered little had no lack” (ref. to Ex. 16:18)
I like that! Paul is very much yes/and in his writings—there’s an eschatological urgency alongside a temporal presence. And I do think that tension is hard to hold when we have charged language and culture wars that want it to be one thing or the other. It’s like how Jesus cleverly uses politically-charged verbiage to point out the political and soteriological desolation for certain folks (and promise for others).
And totally, wealth is obviously very-much tied to its context. An example I have in answering this is that while there is an argument to be made that a federally mandated minimum wage hurts small businesses, my (idealized) solution is that the highest paid member of an organization should only make a ___% more than the lowest paid. Equality assumes a homogeneity of experiences, but equity floats all ships, if you will. In the same way, it doesn’t sit right with my soul to see so-called Christians opting in to legislation (via voting and endorsements) that removes healthcare, funding, and services while propping up multi-millionaires and billionaires. It’s just simply not the eschatological vision of justice we see anywhere in Scripture 🤷🏻♀️ I can only control what I can control, which is localized neighborly love and broader voting power.
Checking out your other stuff here soon!
Hey Josh it’s disappointing that anyone would call you foolish for suggesting based on your research that Jesus was possibly a wealthy man. Even though I disagree with you I would never consider someone foolish for free thought. I would challenge your research against Biblical scholars from the past 100 years? The thing with history is the ease it can be manipulated over time. In any case I am extremely interested and curious why you, your father, and leadership at Elevate are so consumed with being wealthy and prosperous with earthly possessions? I actually made the difficult decision to pull my family from your church over my concern with the utter distraction and confusion related to prioritizing earthly wealth the way you guys do. It was a hard decision because we love Mighty Men and greatly respect you and your father and family for that matter in your efforts to carry out the good news of Jesus. But the constant prioritization and emphasis on extreme wealth and possessions as cornerstones of your business model leave me confused and frustrated. And as you guys say if folks don’t like it then leave and that is what I chose to do. If you want to take the time to answer my question about extreme wealth being literally the cornerstone of your churches beliefs I would be excited to read your comments and be as open minded as possible in constructive thought development and possible change of beliefs.
I'm new to this platform and missed this entire section of your post. I will gladly email privately. My apologies. Let me re read your thoughtful and in depth response and I do appreciate you putting time into it.
Much respect for you taking time to comment. Thanks and you have given me a lot to think about. Thanks Josh.
Easy. Any and All of them. What you suggest about Jesus being wealthy is earth shattering and profound. Front page news. Books published about that very specific topic.
Why? Because it would dispel the historical representations that Christians around the world have of who and what Jesus was about. Can you serve multiple masters? Can wealth be a distraction? Can wealth and power make someone feel like they are a god? Do wealthy people need God? Are wealthy people humble in mind heart and spirit? I would love to know the percentage of wealthy people that care at all about God, Jesus and going to church?
You obviously know I can't provide you with a detailed list of Bible scholars and you are correct that I have not studied as in depth as you have.
I would argue that the burden is on you to defend a theory that is not shared by many? Why are you right and other men of faith wrong?
Where is the actual proof that Jesus was wealthy? You stated yourself that no one knows Jesus' socioeconomic status.
So what's the point behind your comments. What are you and the church trying to get at? What's the objective?
In your other comment you questioned if I was genuine or not, you basically disrespected me by suggesting I am not an adult because I posted in the forum and failed to approach anyone at Elevate and suggested that I am clearly uneducated and less read on the subject than you.
Fair. No argument from me. You don't know me any more than I know you. I am not a poster and I don't believe I attacked you personally with my post. I think the time spent going to Elevate Life gave me and my children a lot to think about and discuss.
Regarding your comment about not approaching anyone at Elevate. You guys aren't approachable Josh. I don't believe you would honestly care to have this conversation with me in person. But if you do care and would like to have it in person I would love to meet you and discuss further as "adults". I would very much welcome that.
And honestly my mind isn't already made up. I can tell you that I am very concerned and in a good way I have spent more time thinking about the messages coming out of Elevate than I have from any other church in my entire life.
So like I said if you are approachable and care to have an in person adult conversation with me I would love that.
Let me know.